{The List} - Technology

[Dauphin]

All I definitely want to say on this issue is get rid of eras. I prefer a free flowing system across the tech tree. The breaking up into arbitrary blocks seems silly.

I to would also like to see some assisted development techs. A standard tech gives you your units and buildings, and then dev techs provide minor upgrades and improvements to them. The dev techs are not required to progress along the tech tree (in fact they aren't really on the tech tree at all). To avoid dead end research into dev techs they could be given to you once you have built a certain number of standard tech relevant buildings/units. Additionally, once you have a dev tech it reduces the cost of any tech that has the standard tech as a prerequisite. In a way it invites you to build city improvements and units from your desired tech path, in order to reduce research costs. If you think about it, a civ that uses a technology day-in day-out is far more likely to develop a new and better technology from it than those that leave it as a scientific 'pat on the back'.

[Kuciwalker]

How about something like this - we have something like the seperation you are proposing. There are two types of "technologies" in the game, "major" and "minor" (for lack of better names).

You don't research major techs. They are researched by the population, and spread between civs on their own (and very quickly). Each major tech enables a certain number of minor techs, which actually allow you to build stuff. So, for example, "Motorized Transportion" would be a major tech, researched by the "population" (or in this case, developed by corporations), which allows the minor tech "Tanks", which let you build, guess what, Tanks.

[Q Classic]

All about the space ship is sci-fi, so you're agree that Civ has to change modern age techs.

the spaceship has been part of civ since civ1, samuel. i don't favor changing it.
adding things like ctp's "ecoterrorists" or "phantoms" or "warwalkers"? that's NOT civ. that's sci-fi. the modern age is fine as it stands. it terminates roughly about now, with maybe a few close, near-term extrapolations.

what i detested about ctp/ctp2 was the fact that they continued past that. i don't like those additions. if they want to make it a mod addition, that's fine, but it should not be part of the original distribution--because that's not civ, that's sci-fi. that's encroaching on SMAC, MOO2, and GalCiv territory, and that's not the civ game i like playing.

[Kuciwalker]

The spaceship is barely, if at all, scifi. It isn't the hulking machine shooting lasers out of its arms.

[okblacke]

USE DRIVEN TECH

While wholly unrealistic, choosing your direction on the tech tree is Civ. In real life, of course, necessity drives technology, which perhaps can be incorporated into the game. Shadows of this can already be seen. For example, you can't build the Wall Street without having Stock Exchanges and I think you need banks to build stock exchanges.

This could show up in tech, too.

For example, you can't really have (Marxist) communism without capitalism (let's say represented by "Economics" in Civ 3) and industrialization.

As someone else pointed out, Democracy doesn't actually boost commerce, it's the distribution of wealth that drives the demand for Democracy.

What I'm getting at is tech could not only have tech requirements, but actual use requirements. Civ has Philosophy very early on, really--before currency. But philosophy is an activity of leisure, and representative governments emerge only when there are people to demand representation.

On a different branch: Has there ever been a peaceful society with a great army and military technology? Some of the benefits of military tradition reflect this, but really, how far is any military research going to go among pacifists? (Military is co-dependent with infrastructure so they can drive each other to an extent.)

Can landlocked countries invent navigation? Is an island country going to invent railroads?

Literacy is optional--you can invent education without it? Or without ever building a library. You can invent the corporation without so much as a single marketplace?

The infrastructure requirements are pretty good--I don't think any are optional. Even so, a certain number of city or road builds could be a requirement for construction.

This can tie in with the concept of scientific, trade or culture boosts for exploration, for contact with other tribes, etc. What the player actually does can shape his culture, including perhaps clashing with it.

A somewhat dicier is the proposition of what you can research. Philosophies infect: democracy, free trade, communism, music, free artistry, hygeine, corporation, copyright--these are all ideas that pass instantly between borders, with positive and negative effects.

A nation of wealthy, educated people is going to gravitate toward representative governments while those who feel oppressed by corporations and industry are going to find communism more appealing. Simulating this would require unrest in circumstances where the government didn't match the people, which may be too bold a change.

One last point to illustrate what could be improved from the current model: In a recent game I played the Mongols. I was almost constantly at war from middle-ancient times to mid-industrial.. Then, in mid-industrial, I switched to Democracy and peace. As if my entire history amounted to nothing.

[ok]

[okblacke]

One quick one: The most amazing advance in human history (hyperbole) is the Bill of Rights. They're not really "wonders" but then, neither is "Suffrage". Briefly, from a message I wrote in Usenet last year:

Freedom of Speech: Reduces corruption. (Decreases happiness?)

Separation of Church and State: Increases happiness

Right to Assemble: Reduces corruption, increases happiness, increases suscepitibility to propaganda

Right to Bear Arms: Either increases defense of garrision or--I like this one, actually causes damage to troops inside a city radius. Each pop point could cause one damage to one unit moving through its radius. (Try taking a 30 population city with two tanks.) Inclined to resist longer. Longer to remain in disorder during a revolution or riot.

Quartering Soldiers Prohibited: Troops in cities without barracks don't heal (maybe). War weariness reduced.

"Due Cause" Search and Seizure: Decreases corruption and increases happiness, scaling with nation size. More susceptible to espionage and terrorism.

Self-Incrimination/Double-Jeoprady prohibited: Decreases corruption, but increases discontent.

Abolition of Slavery: Can no longer capture or keep slaves. Decreases discontent.

Income Tax: Increases revenue and corruption, decreases production and happiness. (Your gpt gets a bonus, but your cities are less productive overall.)

Prohibition: Increases corruption, unhappiness and commerce. Now, if only you could inflict wonders on your enemies.

Just some stuff I thought might be fun. Most of the amendments don't really translate into Civ terms.

[Fosse]

Originally posted by skywalker
How about something like this - we have something like the seperation you are proposing. There are two types of "technologies" in the game, "major" and "minor" (for lack of better names).

You don't research major techs. They are researched by the population, and spread between civs on their own (and very quickly). Each major tech enables a certain number of minor techs, which actually allow you to build stuff. So, for example, "Motorized Transportion" would be a major tech, researched by the "population" (or in this case, developed by corporations), which allows the minor tech "Tanks", which let you build, guess what, Tanks.

This is very similar to what I was talking about above. Keeps the "directed reserach" feel of Civ, increases realism, and is far cooler. I would just want to make one change to what you wrote:

Your "major" techs cannot be traded among other Civs. Instead, the "populations" of the other Civs are able to develop them a bit quicker. We never saw governments making "Sanitation" top secret after all, and protecting its secrets with the same vigor that they protect Nuclear weapons techs, do we?



Big Crunch: Hear hear, to no eras!

[Kuciwalker]

Thanks, I didn't make that clear. The major techs would "spread" - meaning each populations "researched" it, but could get all the research cost satisfied (very easily) by the spreading. You can't trade it.

[Fosse]

In that case, you and I are finally in agreement on a "big" issue!

[Jaguar]

Here are some thoughts. In governments with corporations, (Democracy, Republic, Fascism) after The Corporation is discovered, it should be possible for a company to help contribute beakers towards a technology. For example, the government did a lot of research towards computers, but much of it was done by private companies as well. So in a capitalist government, your civ sometimes works towards, and even discovers techs without you channelling research there.

[Jaguar]

"Flavors" a la the C3C editor should be used. For example, given the choice between Feudalism, Monotheism, and Engineering, a Militaristic civ will pick Feudalism most often, a Religious civ will pick Monotheism most often, and an Industrious civ will pick Engineering most often.

[LDiCesare]

Non tech requirements for techs.
You should not be able to develop navigation if you control 0 coast tile.
You should not be able to research iron working or horseback riding if you have none in your territory. This would require resources to be seen in 2 steps: Step 1) discover (e.g. bronze working lets you see iron), step 2) use it (if you have iron available, then you can research iron working).

[okblacke]

New tech: Archaeology (optional)

Inspired by the "city ruins" left in C3C.

Allows creation of "archaeologist" unit. This unit can set up a "dig" on the site of any razed city. (Maybe even if another city has been set up on the same site? Perhaps with size limits?)

A "dig" generates science for the archaeologist's country and commerce for the country whose borders it falls in.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by okblacke
Is an island country going to invent railroads?

An island country did invent railroads.

[Kuciwalker]

good point

New tech: Archaeology (optional)

Inspired by the "city ruins" left in C3C.

Allows creation of "archaeologist" unit. This unit can set up a "dig" on the site of any razed city. (Maybe even if another city has been set up on the same site? Perhaps with size limits?)

A "dig" generates science for the archaeologist's country and commerce for the country whose borders it falls in.

meh